I have to trade conservatively since I am still in the beginning stages of the trading process…I trade a miniscule amount of shares. (I used to trade a large number in the beginning, which was not a smart thing to do, needless to say). But for now…I am trying to be as careful as possible...
When I enter a trade (upon breakout)…, I know exactly where to put my stop, so I know the exact amount I am willing to lose (less slippage). It usually…rallies a little bit, then pulls back, many times even below my entry point.
So far lately, I have taken the very tiny profit as it rallies a little after the breakout and then I quickly get out with a market order (...just because I have been burnt so much in the past - so I am being neurotically cautious to my detriment perhaps, since I could have so much more by staying in the trade). But then often the stock will rally back up and up and up ...without me on board....
So, then I get in again at the next breakout point and I am nickel and diming myself to wealth (to achieve wealth this way could take the next thousand years)....
Would it be actually smarter for me to just set my stop loss...but IF it does not retreat that far back, then, after it definitely cleared my entry point, just move my STOP LOSS to break-even (or arrange trailing stops) and go to find another trading opportunity?
There is so much pain involved in trading....
1) End the Pain - If you were experiencing significant spinal pain every time you walked, I would tell you to stop walking and call for help. Pain is a warning signal, and that includes emotional pain. A key to our trader's post is that he used to trade larger, but no longer because, "I have been burnt so much in the past." It is the retriggering of those losses that is contributing to his sense that "there is so much pain involved in trading." This is the dynamic of traumatic stress: events in the present flash us back to the painful events of the past, and we relive many of those emotions. While we may not be able to resolve traumatic stresses immediately, we certainly can stop restimulating them. Above all else, do no harm. Stop trading. Totally. Learn some behavioral methods of controlling anxiety and frustration and practice these daily (meditation is a great skill in this regard; combining biofeedback with deep breathing and guided imagery can also be effective). Once you master these methods, make yourself relive your prior trading losses *while you perform the meditation or relaxation exercises*. Keep repeating that until you get to the point where you can vividly visualize and reexperience your past trading losses without getting physiologically worked up. This is far and away the most effective approach to reprogramming traumatic memories. A therapist trained in behavioral methods (exposure work) can assist you with this work; it's not necessary that the person be a "trading coach" or know anything about trading.
2) Re-create Safety - Once you've made significant strides in reprogramming your emotional experience, go into simulation mode and rehearse proper trading strategies (see below) while keeping yourself calm. Only when you can implement your strategies *consistently* and with a calm focus should you consider going live with small positions. Then make yourself achieve consistency and calm with small positions before you gradually raise your size. The only way to overcome trauma is to experience repeated safety. The worst thing you can do is get frustrated and try to make your money back all at once, risking further emotional injury.
3) Research, Research, Research - If you're trading breakout patterns, study every breakout and false breakout you can find to become sensitive to the differences between the two. Look at volume on breakout moves; study normal retracements of valid breakouts vs. the more significant and rapid retracements of false breakouts. Examine behavior of indicators such as NYSE TICK on breakout moves. Your trading approach should reflect your research. Study the "tells" that occur prior to the big volume moves: selling (negative TICK) that cannot move the market to relative lows or buying (positive TICK) that fails to push the market meaningfully higher. Work on entering the long side on those TICK pullbacks; the short side on the TICK bounces. That little execution edge adds up over time. It also provides a natural stop point for short-term traders if the market initially goes your way and then reverses.
4) Practice Hitting Targets - What's missing from our trader's email? Profit targets! We hear a lot about stop loss and pain, not much about profit targets. In the absence of such targets, it's easy to get caught up in tick-by-tick action and take a quick, small profit, reducing reward as well as risk. It is important to have explicit profit targets. These may be pivot points, support/resistance levels, etc. Moreover, these targets should enable you to enjoy as much reward from trades as risk. Some of my own targets are indicator based: if I'm short, for example, I will cover at least some of my position if we get very negative TICK readings on enhanced volume, regardless where that price level may be. Once you establish your targets, practice in simulation mode letting trades run until they either hit the target or are stopped out. While the trade is running, you practice keeping yourself chilled with those relaxation exercises. You can't develop confidence in a trade if you never let the trade run. Simulation is a safe way to build experience and confidence.
I am often asked why I don't accept advertising on my blog, and why I don't participate any more in the popular trading conference events. One important reason is that I want the freedom to speak my mind, with as much honesty and integrity as I can muster. Our reader's email is not unusual in my experience. Writers blithely quote statistics that 80% or more of traders lose money, but rarely do we stop to consider that trading is creating pain for 80% or more of its participants.
Trading can be an incredibly destructive activity. You can pour money and dreams into trading without a demonstrable edge, go against professionals who have the best in research and execution, and you can lose everything.
Lose a house? Lose all your money? Lose your marriage? I've seen it all with traders. For every fortune made, I've seen many, many dreams dashed.
No one in the trading magazines, books, or seminars talks about that. One time I did mention it in a seminar and was told by the conference organizer to not talk on that topic further. I have not appeared at that conference since, by their wishes as well as mine.
The trading industry exists to get people to trade. Brokerages offer products that will get people to trade more. Software firms build in features that make it easier to place orders. Coaches and vendors offer promises of trading for a living and winning in markets.
But no one talks of the pain. No one wants to read the dozens and dozens of emails I receive every week from traders who are hurting.
So I choose to speak my mind without fear of commercial repercussions: If you're going to trade, do it the right way. Don't traumatize yourself. Observe and research before you trade; practice trading small and in simulation mode before you put your capital at risk. Don't abandon your day job until you have a track record of consistent profits across various market conditions. Trade less, not more: emphasize the high probability trades and keep your capital safe in the interim. Forget about riches and don't put yourself in a position where you need to trade large and often to make a living; work on covering costs consistently and managing risk. If you don't see objective evidence of an improving learning curve after a year or two of consistent effort, consider the possibility that your talents lie elsewhere.
Trading may or may not produce gain, but it should not be a continual source of pain. No one has ever traumatized themselves to success.
RELEVANT POSTS:
When Trading Gets Out of Control
Addictive Trading
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16 comments:
Hello Brett,
First I would like to thank you for the quick response to my email... and now about the post..
I know exactly how it feels when "When I enter a trade (upon breakout)…, I know exactly where to put my stop, so I know the exact amount I am willing to lose (less slippage)." and "But then often the stock will rally back up and up and up ...without me on board....".
Unfortunately this is my story more than often. I would say that 7 out of 10 trades that I book losses on do this. And honestly I go into simulation and make a killing on the very similar trades.
What I realized was that in simulation I hold upto 10 pennies against me (Basically a penny or two above my perceived resistance point and more often than not it never reaches that point. But when I get back to trading live all composed and calm, I am a little too precautions and usually get shaken out in the exact same move.
I realized that this could be attributed to the fact that I am not willing to loose too much in real life and always hope that I may get a better price again soon, unfortunately I know that hope is the last thing a trader needs, its dangerous, its a word which can really make me and maybe others loose.
Anyways I have trained myself to not get hurt or feel unhappy with these trades, rather to the contrary I have trained myself to be happy with the same cause what matters to me is that my perception to the level II sizes, volumes, basic demand and supply which I believe is going to drive the market in essence were correct.
I have been training myself to see thing that I had never really considered important in the past.
I enjoy trading in the morning and post-lunch for larger moves, at these times I often see huge volumes coming in perhaps from the big boys and automated programs(often the degree of synchronization of movements that show up across a number of active stocks seem humanly impossible or close to impossible), and honestly these small bad trades(mentioned earlier) have helped me seeing some stuff, now I am working on testing to see if my convictions about the same are right. I will not mention what I feel I see, cause it is not even close to be confirmed.
But as I see it in the end is those small painfully good trades turned foul are actually helping me ponder on my mistakes and see the larger picture.
Cheers!!
Dheer
Thanks Brett,
Your blog is amazing.
I have been amazed by the statistics you pull out in such details. My question is regarding the sectors (like Tech) which have not really seen much of the correction in this ??bear market situtaion. I specifically had question about CRNT which I have been following for some time and it did not even see a day of sell off and has been going green pretty much every day. If traders have similar psychology how come some stocks are being bought heavily by investors while the market is down by 200-400 points.
Sometime I believe its the insttutions and the big funds who run the market and traders psychology had nothing to do with it.
Hi Dr. Brett,
Can you clarify something for me. You made the following comment in this post:
"selling (negative TICK) that cannot move the market to relative lows or buying (positive TICK) that fails to push the market meaningfully higher"
For some reason this seems backwards to me. If negative Tick values are not making lower lows in price, I feel I would want to be buying with the expectation that the market would continue higher. The reverse for positive Tick values that are not moving price higher, then I'd sell expecting the market to continue lower.
Am I missing something or did I catch a typo?
Thanks as always for your very insightful posts. I also hope I understood one of your Twitter comments correctly, regarding posting how you enter your trades, stops, and other details.
I expect you don't want to make exact trade calls, but I can see how sharing additional details on your trades that relate to your comments would be a great benefit to your many readers.
Thanks again,
John
Hello Dr. Brett,
Thank you for this great post, especially the 2nd part about the perils of trading. I 100% agree with you that the whole industry is a money-making machine to suck retail traders, most of whom will fail miserably. Except the bad odds that small traders face to trade for a living, I think there's another thing the industry avoid to talk about: You need a large sum of capital to trade for a living. How much? James "Rev Shark" De Porre at TheStree.com once said US$500K is minimum. What's your opinion? How much do you think is enough for a trader's bankroll if he wants to trade for a living? Thanks.
Regarding breakout trading:
If you're having problems gauging the pullback after a breakout move, then play the pullback instead. It's safer. In other words: don't play the move after the breakout. Instead, wait for the likely pullback to occur and then trade.
Yes, some breakout moves are amazing and you can follow the short term momentum quite high rather fast. But many breakouts fail initially as people sell at the new highs.
Dave Landry has a book out that offers simple pattern plays that rely on pullbacks after a move. It's an excellent way to build confidence because you're trading with human nature instead of against it.
Breakout trading is hard for beginners and intermediate traders due to the eventual draw downs that appear because of short term trader greed.
Hi Dheer,
Great observations re: your trading; thanks for the comment. It's a challenge many traders face. I find that proper position sizing helps me take (normal) heat on positions. Setting stops too close is a great way of getting whipsawed to death--
Brett
Hi Administrator,
I'd frame your observation a bit differently: the psychology of the institutions (as displayed by measures such as TICK, volume at bid vs ask) has everything to do with market trends; the psychology of the individual trader is relatively unimportant, because the individual trader cannot muster enough size to move markets.
Brett
Hi John,
I think it's my phrasing that might be confusing. When there is selling that can't push the market to new lows or buying that can't push the market to new highs, those often reflect good entry points. But, yes, you would be buying those occasions in which selling does not generate new lows and selling those occasions in which buying does not yield fresh price highs.
As for making "exact trade calls", I may incorporate more blog posts on actual trades I place--profitable and unprofitable--to illustrate important market lessons. I appreciate the interest--
Brett
Hi Sciotrader,
It's a great question, and I don't think Rev Shark is far off the mark in his estimate. Anyone who tries to double their money year after year is going to have to take so much risk that, eventually, risk of ruin will catch up to them. I work with some of the best traders at some of the top financial institutions, and I guarantee you none of them are doubling their money annually. So that means that anything less than a six figure portfolio will yield a modest annual income if it's a sole source of earnings. Traders don't like to hear this, and they will come up with stories of so-and-so who has made huge returns trading options. I've yet to see traders sustain those kinds of returns, however.
Brett
Hi Keith,
Thanks for the great comment and advice, as well as the Dave Landry reference. Excellent point!
Brett
Excellent Post Brett,
I too like the part about how you never hear how 80% of traders lose and that we are competing against the most sophisticated traders and machines in the world and that most retail traders are under-capitalized with no real training. What makes you think you can take away money from the "school Bully". 90% of the time he's taking your lunch money, the other 10% of the time you get lucky and avoid him.
How many traders actually have a trading system that they use everyday that they rely on?
Now compare this to the number of traders that trade on the fly, and who is the more likely winner in the long haul?
hello,
it is good to hear you talking about the dark side of this venture...nobody wants to hear this truth...i once heard some oldtimer saying, the prob with all the newcomers is, that they are "overmotivated and undercapitalised"
i remember an article by linda raschke where she was talking about that as a daytrader your goal should be to put together 3 (!) really good days a month
so, if you can adjust your expectations to archieve 3 to 4 bigger winning days a month AND are capitalised that those gains are significant to make a living on them, then you are ready to go...IMO
Administrator, just my observation that some members in the NAZ are not down because interest rates are down. Watch them dump if the 10yr exceeds 5% again.
Curt
My pain was explained exactly..... I was trying to put my pain in words and it was put by some one else precisely.........
The answer ........... Ohhh my god! took away my pain.... I am feeling so free and going to unwind my excess positions today itself... really that was the cause of pain... the greed of getting quick rich and fear of losing that money....
Learning is long... don't make it painful.
The question of capitalization to make a living trading was addressed not too long ago in Dr. Steenbarger's blog. This brings up a question I have: there is now such a wealth of past articles here that it's essentially impossible to find particular topics from the past.
Sometimes I find myself thinking, I wonder what Dr. S. has to say about X, or I vaguely remember some topic I'd like to revisit.
It would be great if there was some way to do a Google type search inside TraderFeed.
The whole issue of setting stops is something I've been wrestling with lately. Some people claim never to use them. Others say you must always use them.
I've been burned both ways, sometimes going deep into the hole from not having a stop in, other times getting stopped out only to see the price instantly rebound above my exit price, or worst of all, getting stopped out significantly below the price I entered.
Has anyone done an analysis of whether *on average* you come out better with stops or without? And which is better - a stop loss or a stop limit?
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